The Campbell Corner Podcast – Sarah Zabel (S1:E6)

Transcript

Host: Regina M. Campbell, Esq., The Campbell Law Group (TCLG)

Guest: Sarah Zabel, retired judge and owner of MAZE Resolutions

Introduction

Regina Campbell: Hopefully you've enjoyed our prior podcasts. Today I have the pleasure of introducing you to former judge Sarah Zabel, now retired, on episode 6 of season 1. Thank you, and welcome.

Sarah Zabel: Oh, thank you. I really appreciate you having me here today.

Regina Campbell: Thank you for coming. I know you're very busy, and we're very thankful for you coming to talk to us today a little bit about you and about what you've done. You have an amazing history. My understanding is that you started off as an assistant state attorney?

Sarah Zabel: I did. I always call it a journey. So, just my Reader's Digest version: originally I wanted to be an entertainment lawyer, because I had a theater background. Long story short, I ended up working for the State Attorney's Office and loving public service, and that's when I did the 180 as far as what I wanted to do.

Regina Campbell: Yes, you definitely love public service. You went on to be a judge, correct?

Sarah Zabel: Yes.

Regina Campbell: Talk a little bit about being a judge.

Dependency court and children in foster care

Sarah Zabel: Sure. Working at the State Attorney's Office, in public service, certainly was a good springboard for me. I went on the bench in 2003. I can't believe it's 2022. You blink your eyes, and that's how quick life goes. But there was just so much experience, and so many things I saw of people in the court system and how the court system impacts everyone. I started out in dependency, with the foster care system, which was very difficult.

Regina Campbell: Yeah, very difficult.

Sarah Zabel: I think for me, respectfully to the people who work for the system, and this is not an indictment of the system itself, because there are people who work very hard, it was the fight that shouldn't have had to be fought, especially for the older children in foster care. The younger ones, the babies, are the ones who find families, the forever families, the permanent homes. It's the older children, unfortunately, who end up aging out without the support that I have with my family.

Regina Campbell: Right. The reality is it's almost like a puppy syndrome. Something unfortunate is that younger children, like you're saying, get adopted, but it's harder for the older ones to find a home, a lot of the teenage children, and that's a very difficult time in a child's life, being a teenager. They can't find homes. They can't find the support they need. The educational stability is not the same, right? It's a different structure. And here in South Florida, I don't know if you've ever heard of Covenant House. They actually support a lot of teenage runaways who would be living on the street because it's too dangerous for them to go home.

Sarah Zabel: Yes, I have. There are a lot of community resources and partnerships that do help these young people, especially when maybe they were removed from their foster home. And unfortunately there's the human trafficking side, where children are taken advantage of. You also have guardians ad litem for children, but you also have lawyers for children, who take the cases on pro bono and are actually the lawyers for these older children. They go in and advocate for their needs before they age out of foster care, which is just so important. It's so important to have that.

Regina Campbell: And thank you to all the attorneys who do that for all of their work. It's just an immeasurable amount of effort for the children and the community.

Criminal court and young people

Sarah Zabel: Oh, absolutely, 100%. And then from dependency, I went to criminal. And again, for me, I focused on the young people. I don't know whether this has ever changed, but when children are charged with certain crimes, they're direct filed to criminal court, and judges really don't have any discretion. Hopefully one day that will change. So there are children who are direct filed who maybe should have stayed in juvenile court. I'm not talking about violent crimes or anything like that. But with certain things, maybe they could get the services they need so that they can have a life. So when I was in criminal, where I could, with the younger people, the juveniles who were direct filed, I would see whether I could help them. I do believe in rehabilitation. I do.

Regina Campbell: And I'm saying that if you have a 15-year-old who goes to prison for two years, they come out monsters, potentially, because of the system. I don't take away from the victims or anything, but if you can make them valuable to the community, I think that's important. I know "monster" is too strong a word. I just mean they become something they're not. They're essentially educated and reared in a prison, an adult prison. They say children's brains are not fully developed until 26, their frontal lobes. So I do agree, there has to be some balance there, right, to help these children rehabilitate themselves.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah. We as a community are responsible, whether through education or through resources, to help these young people. When they do have to go to prison and they come out at 18 or 19, or maybe there are other alternative methods, we can help ensure they don't repeat crimes, that the recidivism rate is not what it is, and that they're able to go into the community and be productive, not only for their own lives but for everybody. It's a win-win.

Regina Campbell: Yeah. So that's what they're talking about with prison reform, right? There might be different levels of helping people get out, and children especially, from a very young age, because it sounds like it's difficult for them to get back on their feet, to get jobs, to be accepted back into society. That creates a cycle, right, that potentially makes them commit crimes again.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, 100%. There's no guarantee. Nobody has that crystal ball. But certainly I think if you give them a chance, working together, it could help everybody.

Civil and family court

Sarah Zabel: And then from criminal, I went to civil. I was a civil trial judge for many years, and I had a variety of cases: from the tobacco cases to commercial contracts, complex commercial, personal injury, real estate, non-competes. It was a hybrid, which I enjoyed too, because it was intellectually engaging. Because it was a hybrid, you had jury trials and non-jury trials, so that also was interesting.

Regina Campbell: Yeah, it's got to be. You're sitting in the seat watching everything, so you learn a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different ideas. That would be really interesting.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, really interesting. And the lawyers who come into civil court are very good lawyers. For me, respectfully, it's all about civility. Professionalism is key, and I think that goes toward mentoring and mentorship.

And then for my last almost four years, I was a family court judge. For me, it's the children, just like I mentioned with dependency. In the family court system, there's the toxicity, what happens to them, the emotional impact. There's an impact on anybody in the court system, whether it's a civil case or probate, but with families, especially children, sometimes the scars, the wounds, will never heal, unfortunately.

Regina Campbell: And it's true. It is very true. And it's simple, because if you look, they don't have a voice. They can't get up and leave. They can't get up and divorce somebody. It's their parents, right? We understand that. As a family lawyer, we're always trying to encourage parents: it doesn't matter if someone talks badly about you. Don't say this or that in front of the children. Don't engage. "Well, he only does this," or "She only does that." Look who's watching. The children don't understand the difference. They love you both. How do you sit there and look at them? "Your dad said this, your mom said that," and they don't know what's up or down.

Sarah Zabel: Oh my goodness, it's so true. And I tell parents all the time, especially parents going through a divorce: it's sad that the marriage is ending, yes, but even though you're divorcing as a couple, you'll always be married as parents.

Regina Campbell: Absolutely. Always.

Sarah Zabel: A written parenting plan is good to have. But the best parenting plan is a plan that you stick in a drawer and never pull out.

Regina Campbell: Yes. You just co-parent, right? Together. Figure it out.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah. Create family, the village, and give the children love. There's no perfect parent and no perfect child. It's just giving them that empowerment and encouragement to succeed in life.

Regina Campbell: Yeah, I agree. And being non-judgmental. And being nice.

Sarah Zabel: Being nice, basically.

Regina Campbell: Being nice. Two words of the universe: just be kind.

Sarah Zabel: Absolutely. It's amazing what can happen with kindness. It disarms so many situations.

Regina Campbell: I think that's true.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah. Thomas James, the writer, said there are three most important lessons. I'm paraphrasing what he wrote: the first is to be kind, the second is to be kind, and the third is to be kind.

Regina Campbell: That's true. I think it helps a lot. I like that.

Lifting the ban on same-sex marriage

Regina Campbell: And it's my understanding that you also made a historic judgment on lifting the ban on same-sex marriage?

Sarah Zabel: Yes.

Regina Campbell: Wow. That's amazing. As a judge, I can only imagine. I go in front of so many judges, and I talk to them sometimes, and I can't imagine what's going through their minds. They have to look at something, at the law, at the facts and equity, and say, "Okay, this is what it is." So that's groundbreaking.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah. I'm probably using this word ad nauseam, "journey," but in the court system, when a case comes in, it's a blind filing system. I think that's true of state court: a case comes in, whether it's a high-profile media case or just a regular case, and it goes randomly to a judge. And it's interesting: some lawyers get the same judge, and you're like, "How does that happen?" There's no rhyme or reason to it.

So when the case was filed, it was in the newspaper and all over the place that this case had been filed. A lot of people tell the story, but I don't mind sharing it. I was walking up the courthouse steps at 73 West Flagler, the historic courthouse in downtown Miami. A judge, and I'm not going to mention his name, looked at me and said, "You have the case." I started looking behind me to see if he was talking to somebody else. I'm like, "Case? What case? You're looking at me?" And he said, "You know, the case." So I went to my wonderful JA, Donna, who is just a sister of my soul, and she said, "You have the case." I said, "Okay."

And my approach was this: it's true of any case a judge receives. This was a high-media, high-profile case. But with any case, you're informed, and you follow along with the facts and everything that's given to you. Obviously there was a process before I made my decision, but the first case I thought of was Loving v. Virginia, the case from years ago on interracial marriage, which had been a crime, and the Supreme Court struck that down, along with all the cases that went with it. Not that I was making my decision right then, but I did think about that case, and about equal protection, due process and everything that was inextricably tied into my decision-making.

My judicial assistant, and I'm not being hyperbolic here, was literally getting over 100 calls a day. You can agree to disagree, and people have very strong opinions, and that's okay. We're human beings and we have opinions, and we should be respectful of each other's sides. But people felt very strongly. People were protesting in front of the courthouse, and I hadn't even made a decision yet. And I don't know if a lot of people know this, but I was up for reelection. Some people in the background said maybe I should just let the case go to another judge. This is behind-the-scenes stuff.

But ultimately I decided that's not who I was. If I couldn't make a decision like that, then I shouldn't be on the bench. A few years later I did retire, but not from being pushed or forced into it. I said, "No, I'm going to keep the case, and I'm going to make the decision."

Regina Campbell: That's amazing, because a lot of judges find that difficult. You can probably see that in this climate, with political issues or other things. That was a hot topic, and it's still a hot topic.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, still a hot topic.

Regina Campbell: And now in the law firms too, there are issues: who goes on the birth certificate, and so on. There are a lot of legal issues evolving as a result of it, including the pronouns and some of the gender issues that are going on, in contracts and in family law.

Sarah Zabel: Absolutely. It's everywhere, little by little. It's a new area of law for all of us: who goes on the birth certificate, and when there's a surrogate. So I think we're evolving, and we'll see what happens.

But lifting the ban, honestly, was a no-brainer for me. When I looked at the courtroom, oh my gosh, it was packed with people. I didn't even expect it. I had just come back from vacation. A judge on the federal bench had made his decision, and it was going to take effect on Tuesday, and I was back on Monday. They were asking if I would lift the ban, and I thought it was just ministerial. Then I walked into the courtroom and there were news reporters everywhere, and I'm like, "Not what I expected." They asked me, and they presented it.

A lot of my decisions when I was on the bench, I did pause and reflect, because I wanted to be fair to both sides before I made an important decision. But with lifting the ban, I just knew instinctively: yes, do it. And then all of a sudden, it was a moment in time that I will always remember.

Regina Campbell: It's a very historic time.

MAZE Resolutions

Regina Campbell: Okay. So now you're retired and you're doing arbitration and mediation. Is that correct?

Sarah Zabel: Yes.

Regina Campbell: Wonderful. What an asset, by the way, to families and businesses out there that need any assistance with arbitration, family matters or mediation: Judge Zabel. So the name of your company is MAZE Resolutions. Talk to us a little bit about the name.

Sarah Zabel: Absolutely. When I decided to retire, it was the right time for me. Like anything, you want to make sure before you make that decision. I did a lot of background research, and I spoke to several retired judges. Some of them said, "Your name should be Sarah Zabel Resolutions, because people know you." And again, I was being reflective. I didn't want to contain myself to just Dade County. It was sink or swim for me, and that's why I didn't go to another firm or practice. I really felt it was sink or swim. I had this vision of a statewide, full-service dispute resolution practice, and I wanted it to be more than my name, because my goal was to bring in more neutrals.

Regina Campbell: Gotcha.

Sarah Zabel: And to have an all-female dispute resolution practice.

Regina Campbell: Very interesting.

Sarah Zabel: Bringing in retired female judges. I have one now, and I'm bringing another one on, and I'm building a dispute resolution practice statewide. So I decided not to do Sarah Zabel Resolutions. I wanted it to be more than that.

I'm a big acronym person, so I started playing around with words. And I said, well, people in the court system go through the maze, right? The maze of litigation. So that's what I started playing with: the word "maze," M-A-Z-E. So what does MAZE stand for? M stands for mediation: all types of cases, commercial, personal injury, med mal, family, certainly workers' comp, employment. Everything, anything to help people stay out of the court system. A stands for arbitration, because I do arbitrate. And Z stands for Zabel.

And E: I thought about what E is, and how E relates to this concept of a maze. Sometimes I'm an expert, so maybe E for expert. I didn't know. And then I had the epiphany, and the light went on. My objective is to navigate people, companies, individuals and certainly families through the maze of the court system, and I do pre-suit too, and get them out of the maze so that they have closure and peace of mind and are able to move on.

Regina Campbell: I love it. The maze. MAZE Resolutions. Love it. I was going to say "almost everything," but no, that doesn't make sense at the end.

Sarah Zabel: I know. MAZ was easier to come up with, and then what do I do with E?

Regina Campbell: I love the maze. That's wonderful. I like it.

Women of Tomorrow and mentorship

Regina Campbell: So I actually wanted to ask you: I think you're part of the Women of Tomorrow organization?

Sarah Zabel: Yes.

Regina Campbell: Tell us a little bit about that.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, it's very near and dear to me, and it's part of who I am: mentorship, paying it forward, and helping young people. I think the bottom line is we all need mentors, at any age, and to have people around us. I've been involved with Big Brothers Big Sisters. I've been a Big Sister, and actually my Little is now 25. I'm so proud of her. I had to throw that in there.

But Women of Tomorrow I've been involved with for over 12 years now. It's an organization that mentors at-risk high school girls. And I really have to give credit where credit is due, to Jennifer Valoppi. She was a news anchor many years ago here in South Florida, a very successful news anchor, and she wanted to give back to the community, especially to young women, and help them succeed, giving them the opportunity by having businesswomen in the community mentor them. There's a scholarship component, but it's really about mentoring.

My girls are now in the working world. Again, it's paying it forward. I love mentoring. I love knowing that I'm helping somebody, because by helping somebody, I'm just as rewarded as I hope my girls are. Just a quick story: one of my young ladies went to UF for undergrad, and she just graduated from Harvard Law.

Regina Campbell: Wow.

Sarah Zabel: These young women certainly have had difficult times, coming from fractured families. Some of them are older siblings with a single parent, and they have to come home straight from school and take care of their younger siblings. They don't really have much.

So we have this organization, and the businesswomen, whether they're bankers or newscasters or lawyers or doctors or accountants, are assigned to a school. It's not a big time commitment. For me, it's really a non-issue. We meet with the girls once a month, and we bring in guest speakers. I'd love for you to come and see my girls, because you're fabulous. They have workshops, and it gives these girls the opportunity to have a future, and to know, through our own experiences...

Regina Campbell: They can see it's possible.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, they can see it, because we all come from various backgrounds.

Regina Campbell: Even when you're successful, it's not like you come from a perfect family with all the money in the world. There are a lot of very successful people who came from difficult backgrounds, and they can see it's possible. You know what this looks like.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah. And my young lady, who is now working and looking at a big law firm in New York: going back to the same-sex marriage decision, she texted me. I think she was at UF at the time. She says, "Judge Zabel, you were just on The Jon Stewart Show," because they showed a video. I said, "Okay." She's like, "Oh my gosh." She's so proud of me, as I'm proud of her.

Regina Campbell: You're probably like, "Ooh."

Sarah Zabel: I'm like, "Do I want to see that?"

Regina Campbell: That's funny. You just see yourself walking into the courtroom: "Hello, everybody."

Sarah Zabel: But the organization, for me, and there are many wonderful mentoring organizations, like Big Brothers Big Sisters, but Women of Tomorrow... I would invite any professional woman who wants to get involved. It's not only South Florida; there are other states too. Jennifer Valoppi deserves all the credit, for her passion for making a difference for these young women, like my mentee who is now a lawyer making a difference in the community. So if you're interested in joining Women of Tomorrow, they are looking for mentors. I would invite anyone interested to please go on the website and find out more information.

Regina Campbell: I like that. Great. We'll also post the link to the website, so that anyone watching the video can get to it.

Sarah Zabel: I'll be more than happy anytime to go to any school or anything.

Regina Campbell: Well, I'm going to hold you to it.

Sarah Zabel: I'm going to do it.

The people who influenced her

Regina Campbell: So I also want to ask, and this is one of the questions we like to ask everybody: with someone as successful as you, we always want to know who most influenced you.

Sarah Zabel: Thinking about that question, it's really so many people in my life. I'm just going to give a quick laundry list. I won't go into depth. Of course, my parents, who unfortunately are no longer here. My mother and father were just so encouraging and believed in me. My dad was a fundraiser, and whether someone gave a dollar or a million dollars, he treated everybody with the same respect. So I take my cue from him. He was just such a good, decent person. And my mom too.

Who else? Dr. Paula Milton at my college. She was just incredible for me. Dr. Radley from FSU, in the communications department. All these incredible mentors and role models. On the legal end, I do want to mention Ruben Gonzalez, who was a legal legend in our community. He's gone now, and he was wonderful.

I also want to mention Edith Osman, a past president of The Florida Bar, who had the courage... I was very involved with FAWL, Miami-Dade FAWL, and I'm a past president. When Edith Osman became president, she committed to putting women on Florida Bar committees, and she stood by her commitment. I kept trying to get on a committee, and she put me on the Family Law Rules Committee. I will always be grateful to her.

And of course my four beautiful children. I'm so proud of them, and of who they are as people. They're good, kind people, because the measure of success is not money.

Regina Campbell: Not money.

Sarah Zabel: And last but not least... Rosemary Barkett, certainly Justice Pariente, all those incredible judicial role models for me. But my husband: my husband was in a catastrophic accident years ago, when I was four months pregnant with my youngest, and unfortunately he is a paraplegic. My husband is just an incredible role model. He believed in me. As soon as he came out of the hospital, he told me, "I don't want you to wait. I want you to run now." And he was out there championing me. I couldn't do what I do without him believing in me.

He is the epitome of overcoming adversity. We all have adversity, but he gets up, and he's such an incredible role model for my children. We all have stuff in life, right? Everybody's going through something. But he gets up every morning, early, and doesn't complain. He's gone through so many things. Even when I decided to leave the bench, he said, "I know you can do it. You're going to be great. I believe in you." He's always been that incredible cheerleader. No matter what life has dealt him, he's such a good, decent man, and an incredible role model for my children. He has just been an incredible partner to me.

Regina Campbell: That's beautiful. That's a beautiful story, and a beautiful family. And listening to who you chose, it's clear why you choose to pay it forward, to help advance other women and mentor other people and children, because they helped you. It sounds like they helped you open doors that were often closed to women.

Insist and persist

Sarah Zabel: Absolutely. I have two boys and two girls, and I always say: if somebody tells you no, go to the next person who tells you yes. Just know your value and insist on it.

Regina Campbell: Insist on it. That's what you do. You insist on your value and maintain it. That tactic also works with AT&T when you call.

Sarah Zabel: That's true. I think there are two words: insist and persist.

Regina Campbell: Yes. It's like inspire, perspire. It's so important. You have to have that integrity for yourself. But I can't tell you how many times someone told me yes, and then they told me no, and then five more people said yes and no. And I'm like, okay. Just keep going until you get the answer.

Sarah Zabel: That's right. And if you don't get the answer you want, then you make the answer for yourself.

Regina Campbell: Yes. Right. Just keep going.

Sarah Zabel: I tell young people, and I tell children: I hope you come to me. There's a village around you. Especially law students, who feel very isolated, especially with COVID. I try to express to them: please come to us. We're here for you. You're not alone. And anybody who closes the door on you, shame on them. We really want to help you, because by helping you, we're also rewarded.

Regina Campbell: I always say that speaks more of the other person than of you as a person: what they do to you and how they react to you. If they react negatively, or they close that door, or they're selfish in other ways... It doesn't take a lot. Sometimes it's just, "Here's the form," and you're helping someone rather than being nasty. We help each other. I can't tell you how many times someone has said to me, "Your smile made my day." We just catch each other's eyes: "Hello." How many times do people get that all day long? We're all sitting in line, or sitting in our cars next to each other, stressed in traffic, and you can just brighten someone's day.

Sarah Zabel: I so agree with you. Empathy, treating everybody with respect. And coming back to the court system: when people come into the court system, you don't know what somebody else is going through. Again, it comes back to being kind, being professional, being civil, and helping somebody else, especially a young lawyer who's just starting out.

And I tell young lawyers: sometimes a more seasoned lawyer comes up to you and says, "How long have you been practicing?" And I tell these lawyers, you know what your answer should be: "Long enough." And keep going.

Regina Campbell: Yes, exactly. I had a couple of times where I was stumbling. I was so nervous for the first couple of years in the courtroom. And another lawyer gave me the dirtiest look, and I will never forget it. I've since been able to help that attorney a couple of times, even though they were more seasoned and more knowledgeable than me. I'll say, "Hey, I heard about this case, you've got this."

Sarah Zabel: I've had lawyers say to me, "Why did you ask that person?" or "Why did you do that?" when you just don't know. They don't teach you to go to the JA and say, "Hi, I'm here for a hearing." Nobody teaches you some of these things.

Regina Campbell: It's true. So many times judges have smiled at me like, "Oh boy." And a lawyer's like, "Now let's go out and have a cup of coffee. I'll buy you a cup of coffee." So you help each other out. You help people out. That's what we should be as a society. But that's a bigger conversation.

Sarah Zabel: That's a bigger conversation.

Mediation over Zoom

Regina Campbell: Yes. So I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful, and it's great to see you, because I haven't actually been able to see you. The whole house was sick, one thing or another, and it was a rough process, so I haven't been able to go out much lately.

Sarah Zabel: It's so nice to see you in person. And thank you for inviting me. After the virtual world, being in person and seeing people is so nice. But just quickly: fortunately, in the mediation world, I think it'll continue to be a hybrid, with mediation through Zoom. I've been very successful, fortunately, getting things settled, and I think I'll continue doing it both in person and through Zoom. You can mediate anywhere. I mediated a case in Boston and was able to settle it.

With the court system, and respectfully to the judges, COVID really put people in a backlog, in a queue for their cases to be heard. But fortunately we had Zoom. Otherwise everybody would be stuck in limbo. Zoom has really been a wonderful platform to be able to move cases, settle cases and resolve them. And as a good segue: I'm so happy to see you in person. I think very highly of you, as a lawyer and as a person, and I just want to say thank you for inviting me.

Regina Campbell: Yes, absolutely. And one last thing I want to say: I'm a big proponent of mediation. My office manager knows this, because he always says, "Regina, you settle everything." And I say, "Well, you know." Most of the time, most things can be resolved through mediation. And it's a little easier with Zoom too. Some people think it has to be this big, involved thing.

I just had a client say, "Regina, I've gotten along pretty well with them for 15 years, and now this issue comes up." And I said, "Why don't you try mediating it before you litigate? You've been able to get along. You just had a little bit of a snag." Sometimes it's a co-parenting tool as well, if you can't come to an agreement through the co-parenting therapist. It might be something you want to try, because when you mediate, the discussion comes out: something you're afraid to say, or that you're holding back. It allows people to see what's really going on.

Sarah Zabel: Yeah, 100%. What I say is that with mediation, you control the outcome. You take that control back from the court system. And especially with Zoom, and look, we're still evolving, but for family cases, people are in their own space. I'm not a psychologist and I'm not going to profess to be one, but I think it does bring down the tone, because you're not right there with the person you have all that animosity toward. There's a fine line between love and hate, but you're not right there. So being in your own space, to a certain degree, from what I've found in family mediation, does bring the tone down. It helps facilitate resolution, which is interesting. It's another dynamic that Zoom brings into the conversation.

Regina Campbell: I agree, 100%. I'm a strong advocate for it. I'm glad you're doing it.

Sarah Zabel: Another wonderful thing about Zoom is that if you can't tie the bow at the end, the parties can still keep having that conversation, whether it's meeting together with a lawyer or in caucus, which is the mediator's term of art, and I can still be involved. I just settled an employment case three months after the mediation. That's the beautiful thing about Zoom: you just send out the link, bring in the lawyer and his client, quickly have the conversation, and hopefully get the case settled for the lawyers and the parties.

Regina Campbell: So wonderful. So keep that in mind, everybody, because litigation, fighting disputes in general, is a difficult road to go down, okay? If you can find more amicable ways to resolve issues, you can sometimes put both parties' concerns on the table. And sometimes it's not a clean process. Sometimes it's a little messy, in the sense that people get angry and say what they want. But sometimes it clears the air, and they realize, "I'm done."

Sarah Zabel: For sure. And I think you and I were talking about this too. Look, there's the emotional impact the courts have on somebody, going down the rabbit hole. And judges and juries see things through different lenses, right? It's all human nature and experience. So nobody can control what's going to happen. In family cases especially, a case you could have settled at mediation, two years later, after spending so much money, sometimes to the point that the lawyers even withdraw, you end up with probably what you would have gotten at mediation, and sometimes even less. So just think about that. That's what I try to emphasize with the people in mediation.

Closing

Regina Campbell: Yes, definitely. So it's something to look at, and I think it's very worthwhile to look up Judge Zabel and MAZE Resolutions, which I love the name of, now that I understand what it means.

Sarah Zabel: I love it. Thank you.

Regina Campbell: So we want to thank you for joining us for this episode. Thank you for coming. It's been wonderful.

Sarah Zabel: Thank you very much. Thank you again for having me.

Regina Campbell: Thank you for coming. And I want to thank everyone else for tuning in to the podcast and coming back to see us for episode six of season one. We hope you'll follow our future podcasts. Also, if you missed any podcasts, we have a lot of interesting ones we've done in the past, and I think you'll be excited to see those as well. Please make sure you follow us on our social media accounts and on Apple Podcasts, and also on TikTok. We're new on TikTok, so that would be wonderful. Thank you, everybody, and we'll see you soon. Take care.